Curse

cebalrai · Mar 26, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

im not bothered into this "war" but i can tell you that equipping heroes can go well over 1000k.

i like pie.

My Koss is so pimp, he won't even equip anything but the swankest 100+eee hammer.

EDIT: Oh wait I forgot, the swankest hammer only costs like 3k.

Creeping Carl · Mar 26, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

im not bothered into this "war" but i can tell you that equipping heroes can go well over 1000k.

i like pie.

Sure, maybe just maybe equipping Heroes can go well over a million. But only if you're doing it in the most inefficient, impractical way and only if you feel the need to equip ALL your heroes on ALL your characters.

So just because there's a bad unnecessary way route doesnt mean you should take it.

DivineEnvoy · Mar 26, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Truth is, nearly no one really cares about the in-depth analysis of the issue. The reasons to remove anti-loot scaling can be listed as the following: one's financial management issue, one's greed to obtain certain items into the game and even one's confusion between loot allocation and loot scaling. In their perspective, they are only aiming to satisfy themselves by pushing the game to a certain direction to overcome these problems. The consequence afterwards has not been considered at all. In all fairness, I'm not a pro-loot scaling person or a anti-loot scaling person, but realistically, I'm not convinced that loot scaling should be removed just because of these personal problems.

Let us first consider people's financial management issue. Just because people have trouble investing their money accordingly, it doesn't imply that more money should be given so that they have enough money to spend. Now let's look into people's greed into obtaining certain in-game items. First of all, I want to point out that certain items are intended to be gold sinks, which people will have to spend their time into farming to get these items. Secondly, even with the existence of these items into the game, it doesn't imply that more gold should be handed out to satisfy the ones who want to obtain these items easily, let alone these items were intended to be gold sinks. Lastly, the misconception to loot allocation and loot scaling is rather simple to analyze. They are two different topics, and just using loot allocation problems as part of the problems to problems of loot scaling, it shows that there are people who have no idea what loot scaling is. With these said, I'm not really against removing loot scaling, but instead, I would like to point out that I'm simply not convinced by these arguments.

Another problem I noticed with these arguments is that people have this ignorant perspective to the situation after the removal of loot scaling. They believe that classic farming methods such as troll farms will still work. Nonetheless, it is still possible that anti-farming code will be added to counter the large flow of gold. Perhaps Anet will even improve the AI to ensure that certain farming methods will fail to achieve their worth. Anyone remembers the old days? When any farming methods are detected by Anet, they will be nerfed. Why is anyone so sure that they will like the result of the removal of loot scaling? Consequently, I don't believe that hardly one person over the anti-loot scaling side has an idea what he or she is talking about.

MithranArkanere · Mar 26, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Hey. Even if they do not allow bots, if they allow people to act as bots, won't it be somehow the same?

reetkever · Mar 26, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

LOL!

1 million to kit out heroes? You can kit out heroes for under 10k. Yes, this will be basic equipment, but heroes don't need multiple sets/vanity armour etc
[/I]

Yes I can, but that's not the point. The point is that someone said that Weaponsmith Weapons can kit your out for little to no money. As Weaponsmith weapons cost 5K each... You do the math.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Reetkever now has 0% credibility now after his comic post.

Look above and get your facts straight before making claims like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Truth is, nearly no one really cares about the in-depth analysis of the issue. The reasons to remove anti-loot scaling can be listed as the following: one's financial management issue, one's greed to obtain certain items into the game and even one's confusion between loot allocation and loot scaling. In their perspective, they are only aiming to satisfy themselves by pushing the game to a certain direction to overcome these problems. The consequence afterwards has not been considered at all. In all fairness, I'm not a pro-loot scaling person or a anti-loot scaling person, but realistically, I'm not convinced that loot scaling should be removed just because of these personal problems.

It has nothing to do with greed. Removing the LS doesn't make one rich. It gives one the oppertunity to at least WORK for cash. I never expected to just get 100K in a week or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Let us first consider people's financial management issue. Just because people have trouble investing their money accordingly, it doesn't imply that more money should be given so that they have enough money to spend. Now let's look into people's greed into obtaining certain in-game items. First of all, I want to point out that certain items are intended to be gold sinks, which people will have to spend their time into farming to get these items. Secondly, even with the existence of these items into the game, it doesn't imply that more gold should be handed out to satisfy the ones who want to obtain these items easily, let alone these items were intended to be gold sinks. Lastly, the misconception to loot allocation and loot scaling is rather simple to analyze. They are two different topics, and just using loot allocation problems as part of the problems to problems of loot scaling, it shows that there are people who have no idea what loot scaling is. With these said, I'm not really against removing loot scaling, but instead, I would like to point out that I'm simply not convinced by these arguments.

Again, it's not as if people will suddenly get rich without the LS. Goldsinks will still be that - goldsinks. People will have to farm to get them. Hardcore farmers will still make more money than casual farmers even after the LS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

Another problem I noticed with these arguments is that people have this ignorant perspective to the situation after the removal of loot scaling. They believe that classic farming methods such as troll farms will still work. Nonetheless, it is still possible that anti-farming code will be added to counter the large flow of gold. Perhaps Anet will even improve the AI to ensure that certain farming methods will fail to achieve their worth. Anyone remembers the old days? When any farming methods are detected by Anet, they will be nerfed. Why is anyone so sure that they will like the result of the removal of loot scaling? Consequently, I don't believe that hardly one person over the anti-loot scaling side has an idea what he or she is talking about.

The first reason why all these spots got nerfed was thanks to the bots. The situation with the removed Loot Scaling is only possible in a game without thousands of bots. With bots gone, there won't be a reason to nerf Trolls - they don't give THAT much money, if they want to stop too much money coming in the market, they would stop solo UW runs and Ursan-DoA.

When LS gets removed and nothing else happens, it's fine. Casual Farming will still be impossible in Hard Mode, because monsters kite there, and in Normal Mode only low-quality stuff drops, but it's enough for any casual player to do their thing.

cebalrai · Mar 26, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Yes I can, but that's not the point. The point is that someone said that Weaponsmith Weapons can kit your out for little to no money. As Weaponsmith weapons cost 5K each... You do the math.

And collectors are free. And maybe at some point you'll get a drop? Do the math on free times 25.

I'm certain you're going to stick to free times 25 coming out to a MILLION gold again. Like I said, zero credibility...

The rest of your post fails again. I could crush you point-by-point just like I did above, but you're just raising crushed points from earlier in this thread. And I still can't get by your math... It just makes everything else you have to say silly to read.

MithranArkanere · Mar 26, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Crafters are not the way to get weapons, are the 'fastest way' to get maxed weapons.
If you can wait, you can use drops and collectors.

This is not an issue. Is not like some people are getting more gold than others, it's precisely the opposite. LS is for all. So all are under the same conditions.

Want to get more cash to buy a certain item? The one that sells the item can also farm and get more cash. So if your gold increases, the gold of those that sell the items also increase, and they can increase prices.

Who's left out, then? Those that do not farm.
And farming becomes 'the way to get cash'.
And it is not.

So all argue about removing LS is pointless.

It do not affect me, though, since the lack of an appropriate trading system keeps me from trading at all with other players.
All I have, I got it playing normally or farming for XP under LS.

No room to complains.

reetkever · Mar 26, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

And collectors are free. Do the math on free times 25.

I'm certain you're going to stick to free times 25 coming out to a MILLION gold again. Like I said, zero credibility...

The rest of your post fails again. I could crush you point-by-point just like I did above, but you're just raising crushed points from earlier in this thread. And I still can't get by your math... It just makes everything else you have to say silly to read.

Ok, let me explain it in the way that even a child can understand.

There was a person that was proving to me that I COULD equip me and my heroes with weapons from the WEAPONSMITH.

I NEVER said anything about actually doing that or planning to do it. I just said that if I buy (watch it, here comes the calculation you find so hard) 1 weapon from the Weaponsmith (5K each) for every one of my heroes... (I have 25 heroes per character, and 8 characters. So (25x8=) 200 heroes in total), I would have to buy 200 weapons of 5K each. That would cost me (5x200=) 1000K

Once again just so you won't get confused: I never claimed I actually equip all of my heroes with these weapons. It was just to show the person that beating only NF and EotN does NOT give one all the cash needed to equip all your characters and heroes with Weaponsmith Weapons.

As for collectors... If I would give every of my heroes a Collector weapon, I'd have to farm 1000 collectible items for all the weapons (In a situation where a collector's weapon costs 5 collectibles). It's a near-impossible task to get all that, even without Loot Scaling.

ac1inferno · Mar 26, 2008, 09:50 PM // 21:50

[x] Yes, remove Loot Scaling. (Or /signed)
[ ] No, it's fine as it is. (Or /notsigned)
[ ] I have a slightly different view that I have expressed below in an elaborate manner.
[ ] Cake is ****ing delicious.

Loot scaling didn't stop the bots and gold sale, so if theres going to be a new policy against real money trading, I think loot scaling should be removed.

MithranArkanere · Mar 26, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Oh, wait, wait:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gaile_News/20070420

Bots where not THE reason, where ONE reason.

It seems that the RMT policy has nothing to do with this. The other reasons are still here, and will always be.

Hm... hm... so, no lootcaling anyways. I'd rather have lootscalling that the old annoying anti-farm code.

cebalrai · Mar 26, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Ok, let me explain it in the way that even a child can understand.

There was a person that was proving to me that I COULD equip me and my heroes with weapons from the WEAPONSMITH.

I NEVER said anything about actually doing that or planning to do it. I just said that if I buy (watch it, here comes the calculation you find so hard) 1 weapon from the Weaponsmith (5K each) for every one of my heroes... (I have 25 heroes per character, and 8 characters. So (25x8=) 200 heroes in total), I would have to buy 200 weapons of 5K each. That would cost me (5x200=) 1000K

Once again just so you won't get confused: I never claimed I actually equip all of my heroes with these weapons. It was just to show the person that beating only NF and EotN does NOT give one all the cash needed to equip all your characters and heroes with Weaponsmith Weapons.

As for collectors... If I would give every of my heroes a Collector weapon, I'd have to farm 1000 collectible items for all the weapons (In a situation where a collector's weapon costs 5 collectibles). It's a near-impossible task to get all that, even without Loot Scaling.

What do you have to say about your whole argument being a total waste of pixels? Nobody is trying to equip 25 heroes on eight characters.

So why are you bringing it up and defending it so adamantly?

reetkever · Mar 26, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

What do you have to say about your whole argument being a total waste of pixels? Nobody is trying to equip 25 heroes on eight characters.

So why are you bringing it up and defending it so adamantly?

Learn to read.

Quote:

There was a person that was proving to me that I COULD equip me and my heroes with weapons from the WEAPONSMITH.

In fact, that argument had nothing to do with you at all. You just use it to say that I'm using wrong facts, which is not the case as I have proven in my earlier post.

MSecorsky · Mar 26, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

All the heroes I use are fully equipped, and the rest most of the way there. Almost by accident, under the current system. Greens drop, hero gets it. Gold or purple max, hero gets it. Runes? Hero before merch.

You may invest a little to equip your primary heroes, but over all, you can fully equip the rest just by normal game play. The nice thing is, thanks to gold having the buying power it does (things are cheap), you can buy things for heroes for a lot less than pre-LS/pre-HM.

rohara · Mar 26, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Nobody is trying to equip 25 heroes on eight characters.

i did. on 9 characters.

collector items only though...which was the cheapest route, but it was still painful. collector items are included in LS and not so easy to farm. and collectors aren't free, btw - they request items for trade. you can't just walk up to a collector and get a max weapon for nothing lol

5x trophies = 1 weapon.
1 weapon per hero for 25 heroes. (more considering the warriors and paragons also needed a shield, but w/e)
9 characters with 25 heroes.
1125 trophies needed.
if you bought all the trophies @ 100g each, that's just over 112k.

i tried vanquishing areas and even farming the trophies, but after several months i got fed up and bought most of them.

runes and insignias hurt the most, though.

CHannum · Mar 27, 2008, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Instead of calling people names, try and give ONE good reason why not to remove the Loot Scaling. All you have been doing in this thread is trolling and bragging about how you can manage in this game and even buy 1337 armour.

My reason has been repeated again and again and is clearly lost on you: you absolutely, positively, without a doubt do not need more money than just playing the game will net you, full stop. You don't need to farm, you don't need to grind, you just need to actually play the game and get over your insistence that it actually matters if your weapon is collector "junk" or a fabled req 7 elemental sword with perfect mods. Since you don't need any more money than this, anything that alters the amount of free and excess gold serves to devalue the same sorts of epeen bling you're so obsessed with, that or puts Anet in the place of raising the fixed prices to counteract the increase in gold flow. I can already buy a set of elite armor every few weeks just playing the game, I hardly see why it should get any easier if it's to have any sense of accomplishment at all.

Quote:

Once again you proof to be a rich elitist. Skills, for example, are 1K each. 1 friggin K. For normal players 1K is quite alot of cash. Also, necessities aren't the same for everyone, and depends with one's playstyle.

Bollocks; you really seem incapable of forming one argument that's based in anything other than a made up version of the game. I made more than a plat per zone just travelling from one zone to another in Kourna in a full party of H/H these past few days. Are you going to seriously suggest that me and my heroes *require* adding more than one new skill for each and every zone we pass through (and each time we pass through it for that matter)?

BTW, necessities ARE the same, that's why they're called necessities. You need max weapons, max armor, a well chosen set of skills, maybe some runes. That's it. Whatever your particular playstyle and goals for the game, you won't convince anybody they actually require more than this (well, I guess the full bore UB teams need their consumables for max speed and efficiency, but money isn't exactly their choke point). You don't even need the heros you keep dragging into your fraudulent calculations. Regardless, I've spent less on dozens of heros combined than you are claiming you need per hero

You can keep falling back on your attempts to say my experiences aren't representative, but they have to be because I just don't try all that hard and I am hardly getting anything special in my drops. I'm not luckier, I'm not richer, I'm just smarter about analysing what to spend money on, what to put off as fluff for another time, and what to totally disregard as not worth the effort. We don't need to get rid of LS, we need to get rid of stupid gamers who think that because they can't figure out how to survive in a game that, quite literally, hands you everything you'll ever need to play it there must be something wrong with the game design.

Think about that: you are angry at a game that doesn't require anything whatsoever but what is all but put into your inventory for you from the day you start a character to the day you finish whatever uber area you think you need to beat. Yet, since they felt the need to give you something to entertain yourself with beyond the gameplay and storyline, they fill the game with mini-games of "Pimp the Toon". These mini games have no effect on the game play or storyline, they're just there as fun distractions. Yet, for some reason, the very elements Anet created to add longevity into the game anger you because you can't get them as fast as you'd like. It just doesn't make sense. If you really have been playing this game three years, you've gotten far more than your money's worth. I can't name a game since the days of PnP in my youth that held my interest for three years...

Let's clear the air here: the reason why I'm being such an ass is that you're a lying douche bag in this thread. I've got no idea if you're a decent guy in general or not, but as far as this thread goes, you're a lying douche bag. I'd have no problem if you simply stated the truth: "I don't much like playing the game anymore, but I like pimping my characters out in bling, and find that LS makes it harder to do so than I find fun". See, that's the truth - I would still disagree with you, but you're fully entitled to hold that view. My problem is this made up version of the game where you can't even play it with a single character without more money than I've had between ten characters combined, a game filled with thousands of little gamers sniffing and crying on their mommies' bosoms because they can't make it out of Shing Jea Monastery and will just have to delete that character and start over... AGAIN. It's just not true, and trying to defend your personal greed for bling with specious arguments about how it actually stops the working man from getting anywhere pisses me off.

Akolo · Mar 27, 2008, 05:39 AM // 05:39

it would be nice to at least have some kind of answer by anet now

i dont care frankly, removing LS will force me to farm to keep up with money gain, and this will ofc give a lot of cash. but not removing me will let me do fun stuffs to gain as much cash as you do from farming :P so rly, cake is ****ing delicious

strcpy · Mar 27, 2008, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

it would be nice to at least have some kind of answer by anet now

You have had it over and over again - loot scale is not going away. This is something a *player* brought up out of his or her own mind. Now, do they sometimes have Anet change their mind? You bet and it isn't useless to post this. But they can not respond every time nor should they.

Lets face it, I could start a thread called "I ate two Oreo's today, should Loot scale be removed because of this?" and it would overwhelmingly be /signed and no question as to what the poll would say also.

The two questions aren't that far off, there was more to the loot scale thing than simply bots. Plus IMO the newer policy *needs* loot scale to be effective and it is obvious that loot scale *did* have an effect - those that can will recall that gold prices rose significantly and stayed there along with a general reduction in bots - though it didn't fully "solve" it. I see no indication that more people are purchasing gold, in fact I see far fewer posts asking about it than before and pretty much only the old timers complaining.

While it may go over well with forum goes that would consider me eating two Oreo's a good reason to remove LS Anet isn't that shortsighted and will very much remember the effect it had. While it may work in public relations and politics repeating an untruth over and over will not suddenly make it true and Anet has the server logs for proof. Best to accept what reality is and try and change that instead of ranting about something Anet doesn't really care much about.

FWIW I would like to see loot scale removed even if it meant the return to the old anti-farming code. It was fairly easy to rotate your farming spots and never see said code in action yet I can't avoid loot scale. But then I'm also one that would really like 7 heroes so my endorsement doesn't seem to helpful right now. I also understand that until one can counter *all* their main arguments it is useless to ask for it nor do I expect an answer every time there is a long thread wanting it added for some particular reason someone came up with. Especially when the thread adds pretty much nothing new to the whole mix.

wetsparks · Mar 27, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

big block of text here

i didn't read all of your post because it was so long, you are the person saying you get all you need from just playing the game bla bla bla. And for the average person that is fine, Anet even said a long time ago that most of the players don't have 20k in their storage. But there are people who want to have God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals (6) and full HoM and that does take money, but how are you supposed to get it? Hell, not even that just a respectable HoM to get something in GW2 (upward of 100k for 15k armor plus materials and I think destroyer weapons are around 50k right now). Just playing the game won't net you near enough money, even vanquishing won't. So if the only way to do this is to farm, and Anet does all they can do to make farming less profitable.....

One thing I would like answered from people though, not necessarily CHannum, the whole inflation argument. I'm by no means an economy major, but a healthy economy will cause inflation, and a recessed or depressed economy causes deflation. So if Anet is doing this stuff to bring the prices down, they are essentially purposely causing a recession/depression in the economy and how is that good?

tmakinen · Mar 27, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

But there are people who want to have God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals (6) and full HoM and that does take money, but how are you supposed to get it?

Actually, money is a pretty irrelevant concern in comparison to the amount of effort needed, unless you want to gain those achievements through buying your way through the game.

Let's consider what they really cost.

Monument of Fellowship: cap some pets, do a couple of challenge missions. Total cost to fill the monument 0g
Monument of Devotion: depends a bit on how many characters you have and how long you have been playing. Wait until 3rd year series then acquire those white 1st and 2nd year series minis that you're missing. Total cost to fill the monument 0-100k
Monument of Honor: filled through getting titles, separate cost 0g
Monument of Resilience: get 3 EotN sets at 40k each, 2 others at 60k, materials come from proper salvaging, no need to rune or dye, total cost 240k
Monument of Valor: Completing Master of the North will give you around 40 diamonds and onyxes, raid UW, FoW and dungeons for the rest or just buy them. Farm Ascalon stone elementals for granite, iron and money. Total cost to fill the monument 200-400k

Total cost to fill HoM 440-740k

Survivor/LDoA: 0g (optional, not achievable for all characters)
Guardian (7 titles): 0g
Vanquisher (4 titles): 0g
Cartographer (4 titles): 0g
Lightbringer: 0g
Sunspear: 0g
Master of the North: 0g
EotN reputation (4 titles): 0g
Luxon/Kurzick: 0g
Skill Hunter (4 titles): 290k
Drunkard: 0g (farm gargoyle skulls in advance for Wintersday)
Sweet tooth: 0g (farm creme brulee during Dragon festival)
Party animal: 0g (farm stuff in advance for most festivals or party stuff during Canthan New Year)

30 or 31 titles maxed, enough money earned to cover both the skill hunter and full HoM.

(Just to point out, completing the above will take around 1500 hours of playtime, so even a very low income rate of 1k per hour would cover the expenses. In practice you'll end up a couple of millions richer than when you started.)

manitoba1073 · Mar 27, 2008, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHannum

HMMMMM

Its even more funnier when people like you claimed the exact opposite before LS was implemented. Now you're here trying to tell people all they need is the necesseties, which even yourself have admitted has changed at all. So then what was the big problem before. Oh thats right. People claimed things that were vanity were to expensive for them to afford.